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Author Topic: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge

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Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« on: 06 February 2014 at 17:40 »
Found this online ...

The following is actually an excerpt from my diary.

Via Twitter I had previously asked an atheist lady from Minneapolis, Minnesota, if she could provide evidence for her assertion that she believes the figure of Jesus Christ to be a genuine historical figure because, quote, ‘I accept he existed because evidence suggests he does.’ This is from yesterday and she didn’t get back to me for whatever reason. However, a Christian fellow, or ‘pastor,’ named Gregory who talks of his own ‘testimonies of God doing the impossible in my life,’ took up the challenge, citing the standard Christian ‘evidence’ that Christ was a real historical figure. I’m just surprised he didn’t cite Josephus and Philo:

‘@James Tacitus' 'Annals: book 15, chp 44' (written in the 1st century)....he was  a Roman historian. Pliny the younger, a roman governor, mentioned Christ & Christians when writing to ceasar. Seutonius mentioned Christ & Christians in a writing about some riots (69-140 ad). Thallus wrote about the earthquake that the Gosples mentioned happening at the crucifixion. Thallus also wrote a history of the Trojan war. sorry, 1 more..also pontias pilot himself (the Acts of Pilate)...& a Roman satirist Lucian.’

My reply to each tweet:

‘@Pastor Gregory This (Tacitus Annals) isn’t a contemporary source. Written nearly 100 years after the supposed event. This just means there were Christians. To me, if the source is accurate & not the work of an over-zealous Christian scribe, means Tacitus was familiar with the myth.

Of Christian religious rites, Pliny notes: ‘all I could discover was evidence of an absurd and extravagant superstition.’ Anyway, as with Tacitus, Pliny wasn’t born until many years after the supposed events. He only notes there were Christians. ‘Do not go out of your way to look for them,’ advised Trajan to Pliny (Letters of Pliny). Big mistake. Rome would come to rue this advice.

‘Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.’-Suetonius AD 121. Basically these sane Romans depict Christians as the zealous lunatics that they were. Again, Suetonius years after the ‘event’.

From what I’m reading, Thallus was the invention of an overly zealous 3rd century Christian Sextus Julius Africanus. Unreliable. We can’t even verify the historicity of Thallus, & what he supposedly had to offer wasn’t so special anyhow.#ChristianSilliness

Gospel of Nicodemus not authentic. Okay, I took the time to look up every source & there is basically nothing on offer here. So really, Gregory, outside of your works of fiction, what do we really have to verify Christ’s existence & his miracles? Nowt.’

‘“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. … You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains their contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”
—Lucian, The Passing of Peregrinus

It seems Christians don’t realise when they are being mocked if they regard this satirical quote as ‘evidence’ for the historical existence of Jesus. Anyone care to guess when Lucian was born? AD 125. :-/

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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #1 on: 06 February 2014 at 21:13 »
Isn't there a famous quote or two from well known people who have said that no matter how much evidence or facts you provide someone with Xtianity (fungus) on the brain, he or she will not hear of it? 

Instead of playing the Xtians' game, why not have an arsenal of quotes from very well known ACTUAL historians, statesmen, philosophers, etc.?

Celsus is one of my favorites.  The early Xtians spent well over a hundred years trying to refute him, ending up burning everything he ever wrote.  The only writings we have of Celsus today are those that the early Xtians attributed to him. 

http://whitenations.com/showthread.php?t=1076&highlight=Celsus&page=3

Celsus. Roman philosopher (c. 2nd century, A.D.)--the first ancient author of a whole book attacking Christianity.

Just as the charlatans of the cults [of Cybele, Mithras, etc.] take advantage of a simpleton's lack of education to lead him around by the nose, so too with the Christian teachers: they do not want to give or to receive reasons for what they believe. Their favorite expressions are "Do not ask questions, just believe!" and: "Your faith will save you!" "The wisdom of the world," they say, "is evil"; "to be simple is to be good."

And how can one overlook the fact that Christian teachers are only happy with stupid pupils--indeed scout about for the slow-witted. . . . And to the scum that constitutes their assemblies, they say "Make sure none of you ever obtains knowledge, for too much learning is a dangerous thing; knowledge is a disease for the soul, and the soul that acquires knowledge will perish."

Let's assume for the present that he [Christ] foretold his resurrection. Are you ignorant of the multitudes who have invented similar tales to lead simple-minded hearers astray? It is said that Zamolxis, Pythagoras' servant, convinced the Scythians that he had risen from the dead, having hidden himself away in a cave for several years; and what about Pythagoras himself in Italy! ---or Rhampsinitus in Egypt. . . . What about Orpheus among the Odrysians, Protesilaus in Thessaly, and above all Herakles and Theseus?

It is equally silly of these Christians to suppose that when their God applies the fire (like a common cook!) all the rest of mankind will be thoroughly roasted, and that they alone will escape unscorched--not just those alive at the time, mind you, but (they say) those long since dead will rise up from the earth possessing the same bodies as they did before. I ask you: Is this not the hope of worms?

It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie, and that your fables have not been well enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction. I have even heard that some of your interpreters, as if they had just come out of a tavern, are onto the inconsistencies and, pen in hand, alter the original writings three, four, and several more times over in order to be able to deny the contradictions in the face of criticism.


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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #2 on: 06 February 2014 at 21:22 »
To the Guest:

A quick note for you and others.  To save time on researching dubious claims by Xtians, I recommend the website Jesus Never Existed:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

Yes, Kenneth Humphreys is a Jew.  However, his work can and will save us a lot of time with research. 
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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #3 on: 06 February 2014 at 21:26 »
Pope Boniface VIII. (1235-1303)--charged with heresy after his death based on testimony that he had made these remarks:

So that God gives me the good things of this life, I care not a bean for that to come. A man has no more a soul than a beast. Did you ever see any one who had risen from the dead?

Christ! he was no Son of God; he was a man, eating and drinking like ourselves; he never rose from the dead; no man has ever risen. I am far mightier than he. I can bestow kingdoms and humble kings.
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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #4 on: 06 February 2014 at 21:27 »
Tacitus. Roman historian (55-120 A.D.):

Christianity is a pestilent superstition.
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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #5 on: 06 February 2014 at 21:29 »
Tertullian. Church Father (c. 180-230):

Tertullian's paradox: certum est quia impossibile est. It [the story of Christ] is certain, because it is impossible.

Note: This is the likely origin of the modern phrase, "I believe because it is impossible."
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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #6 on: 06 February 2014 at 21:29 »
Porphyry. Scholar of Tyre (c. 232-305):

A famous saying of the Teacher [Christ] is this one: "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will have no life in yourselves." [John 6.54] This saying is not only beastly and absurd; it is more absurd than absurdity itself and more beastly than any beast; that a man should savor human flesh or drink the blood of a member of his own family or people--and that by doing this he should obtain eternal life! Tell us: in recommending this sort of practice, do you not reduce human existence to savagery of the most unimaginable sort?
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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #7 on: 06 February 2014 at 21:30 »
Frederick II. Holy Roman Emperor (1194-1250):

Accused by Pope Gregory IX of having said the world had been deceived by three impostors--Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed.
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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #8 on: 06 February 2014 at 21:32 »
Leonardo da Vinci. Italian artist (1452-1519):

Take no miracles on trust; always look for causes.
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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #9 on: 06 February 2014 at 21:34 »
Pietro Pomponazzi. Italian philosopher (1462-1525):

[The statesmen] have set up for the virtuous eternal rewards in another life, and for the vicious, eternal punishments, which frighten greatly. And the greater part of men, if they do good, do it more from fear of eternal punishment than from hope of eternal good, since punishments are better known to us than that eternal god. And since this last device can benefit all men, of whatever degree, the lawgiver regarding the proneness of men to evil, intending the common good, has decreed that the soul is immortal, not caring for truth but only for righteousness, that he may lead men to virtue.

Note: As the most influential philosopher of the Italian Renaissance, Pomponazzi was able to make this statement by using Averroes' "double truth," a common rhetorical strategy at the time that let him justify heresy by contrasting it with orthodox arguments which could be ignored by readers aware of his intentions. Pomponazzi also argued in essays published after his death that the soul is mortal, that angels, demons and miracles are fictitious, that religions are born and die, and that prayers go unanswered.
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Re: Evidence for Christ’s Existence Challenge
« Reply #10 on: 27 June 2019 at 15:49 »
Bump!

    
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